General survey type question

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 07/02/2019 at 14:10 • Filed to: None

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I am in a very bizzare- type debate on the FP about whether or not letting your kid ride on your lap qualifies as child endangerment.

I realize that many of us grew up in the “cram all the kids in the bed” days and “we turned out fine” but I think those of us who turned out to be parents ourselves mostly realized what a terrible idea that was then and now.

That being said I also realize that people feel they have the right to do whatever they think is in the best interest of their kid regardless of the prevailing social norms.

Lastly I am aware that child seat laws are on the books in all 50 states, though it varies state to state as to the severity of the punishment, from fine to felony and that getting caught or into an accident is, statistically speaking, relatively unlikely.

So what are your thoughts? Let’ s use a couple of examples and I want to hear what you think about each one.

Example 1 : I let my 1 year old ride in my lap as I’ m driving. She thinks its fun and I don’t want her to grow up in a safety bubble.

Example 2 : M y 2 year old rides in front with me in his carseat because I can keep a better eye on him.

Example 3 : My 7 year old doesn’t wear a seatbelt because I think they are a gross overreach of the government regulation.

Example 4 : My 5 year old doesn’t use a booster anymore because she’s fine and boosters are a PITA.

So what do you think? Ranging from clear child endangerment to simply bad idea...where would you rank each example?

I would also appreciate the law talking guys to chime in.

CB > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:26

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1 is endangerment.

2 is probably also endangerment since the kid’s so small and the airbag hitting them would not be a good time.

3 is endangerment.

4 is probably endangerment, because no five year old will be that big.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:27

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If you don’t take steps to ensure the safety of your child that are a) prudent/reasonable and b) that you are legally compelled to....then yeah it would be child endangerment in my books.

You have the “freedom” to make your own poor choices, but not your child’s ***

***not saying you HHFP are making poor choices, just speaking in general.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:27

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I pity the person who thinks booster seats are a PITA.  With that logic, seat belts are pretty annoying too.

CalzoneGolem > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:29

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In example 1 that child would be killed if the air bag went off.

In example 2 that child might be killed if the air bag went off.

3 and 4 are just plain stupid.

That being said I’ve had my children drive into the garage or up the driveway on my lap.

vicali > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:30

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I was thinking along the same lines this weekend, we were walking back to our campsite and there were kids riding in the boats on trailers waving at everyone and hanging out the sides while it got towed back to their site.. I remember that being one of my highlights growing up as well - but imagining my kids in there gave me palpitations..

A s a parent #notmykids on any of those examples, but I could see how people w ould justify all of them..

Arrivederci > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:30

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So what are your thoughts? Let’s use a couple of examples and I want to hear what you think about each one.

Example 1 : I let my 1 year old ride in my lap as I’m driving. She thinks its fun and I don’t want her to grow up in a safety bubble.

Clear child endangerment. The child is unbelted in the wrong part of the vehicle and, as a parent of a 9 month old, certainly going to be squirmy and distracting to the operator of a 3500lb machine.

Example 2 : My 2 year old rides in front with me in his carseat because I can keep a better eye on him.

I do not have a problem with this in the least if the front airbags can be turned off and the carseat has proper attachment points . After all, I told my wife even my Miata had a LATCH system and could turn off the airbags. It was designed to have kiddos riding up there if necessary.

Example 3 : My 7 year old doesn’t wear a seatbelt because I think they are a gross overreach of the government regulation.

Clear child endangerment. The kid should also likely be in a booster seat.

Example 4 : My 5 year old doesn’t use a booster anymore because she’s fine and boosters are a PITA.

Unless the 5yo meets height and weight requirements not to use a booster, they should be using a booster. Also - boosters are not a PITA compared to car or infant seats.

So what do you think? Ranging from clear child endangerment to simply bad idea...where would you rank each example?

From Worst to Least Worst: 1, 3, 4, 2.

ttyymmnn > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:31

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I would never allow my child to ride in my lap, laws or no laws. It’s just a horribly stupid idea. 

Montalvo > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:31

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I think its pretty straight forward, on my driveway or private land they can be wherever. The second I am on a public road I would want my kid secured as required by law. Accidents can happen at anytime and the amount of airbags in cars now are staggering. A kid in the wrong spot when they go off can do more harm than good.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:31

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eh... 1 and 3 id say are child endangerment... 1 coz airbags and 3 coz if you think that you are too stupid to be a parent

2...front or back facing seat? and is there a passenger airbag .... this ones murky for me

4.... eeeh... i dont think thats endangerment... but also i had to google booster... so im guilty of that one and giving meself the not terrible parent badge

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:31

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Example 1: your child will die or suffer permanent/severe/expensive injuries if an airbag deploys.

Example 3: in a rollover, your child is now a missile and will be severely injured if not ejected in the absolute best case.

Example 4: is she fine though? If she’s tall enough that the seat belt is below her neck, I don’t think there’s a problem here. If not or if it gets tucked behind her, the restraint will not provide the intended protection in the event of a serious crash.

Alfalfa > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:32

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I’d say 2 and 4 are the only ones I wouldn’t call child endangerment, but  only assuming scenario 2 has no airbag. Also I would still never condone either one. I would however give more leeway to all of these in instances of farm trucks and light offroading.

lone_liberal > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:32

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Example 1 is terrible and actually worse now than “back in the day” due to that explosive device packed in to the steering wheel. Example 3 is stupidity at its finest. Way to sacrifice your child in the name of libertarianism. Example 4 is dangerous but not to the level of the others and Example 2 while certainly not ideal or well thought out reasoning isn’t the end of the world since people sometimes do have 2-seat cars or vehicles with no back seat.

Chuckles > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:33

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1 is pointless endangerment, because at 1 year old they will have no memory of that experience.

2 is endangerment because your child is safer in the backseat.

3 is moronic endangerment because you shouldn’t put your child in danger for political reasons. Seatbelts are good. Wear the seatbelt, dummy.

4 is less bad but still endangerment. 

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:33

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Examples 1, 2, and 3 to me are absolutely unacceptable because they could very easily result in the child getting severely injured or killed. And it seems to be a matter of the parent’s inaccurate belief systems being applied against a kid’s safety…and we’ll see who wins, Johnny Boy! #4 seems less extreme to me – maybe the kid is already tall enough to not need a booster? I have no idea what the recommendations/requirements are on such things. Perhaps it should be a more nuanced law – focusing on weight and height of the kid, instead of age?

Many things we do for our kids are a PITA but that’s the whole point, we still do them in order to protect them while they are too small to be able to protect themselves. If the rules are nuanced enough and based on widely accepted (in the field of specialization) research findings that they do in fact save lives, I’m all for it.

I cannot imagine the alternative – losing your kid because you were too big headed to follow expert advice/rules? I don’t know how someone could live with themselves after that.

The Ghost of Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:35

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Why are people so opposed to common sense? 

deekster_caddy > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:35

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All 4 of these are against most laws that I’m aware of and for good reason.

1) until the airbags kill them

2) until the airbags kill them

3) until they die in an accident

4) until they die in an accident

All 4 of these things are proven to improve safety and there are laws about them for many reasons. Whether or not they reach the level of child endangerment I’m not sure. Front seats - the real restriction is when there are airbags. As long as the seatbelt aligns with their shoulder and not their neck I don’t really care what seat they are in.

In my ‘73 LeSabre I let kids ride in the front because there are no airbags and it has lap belts all around, so everybody in the car is on equal safety levels, i.e. there isn’t one seat notable safer than another.. . In my ‘54 MG it did not originally come with seatbelts, so they aren’t required, but I have them and make everybody wear them , and I do let kids ride with me. That said it’s for special occasions and not a daily driver...

Alfalfa > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 07/02/2019 at 14:35

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Fo r real. Especially after dealing with car seats thought infant and toddler years, booster seats are a fucking breeze.

HammerheadFistpunch > Arrivederci 07/02/2019 at 14:37

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re: 1 - you are right that even the distraction alone is bad news.

HammerheadFistpunch > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 07/02/2019 at 14:38

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nah, your good. I hear ya.  I wouldn’t do any of these things, but even if I did I would want people to tell me what a bad idea it was.

HammerheadFistpunch > vicali 07/02/2019 at 14:39

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Sure.  I do some dumb stuff still with my kids but I see a LOT more dumb stuff being done all the time and think “you’re okay with this?!”

HammerheadFistpunch > CalzoneGolem 07/02/2019 at 14:40

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I think that in a controlled environment and especially one on your own property you are welcome to exercise a little more judgement. I’ve had my 3 year in the front seat with me on mild trails, but the seat was all the way back away from the airbag that wouldn’t have deployed anyway due to speeds and lack of traffic.  Even then, I’ve only done it once.

Shamoononon drives like a farmer > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:42

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I drove with my infant in the front seat (in her rear facing car seat chair) but I had no choice because I only had a pick up truck.

The rest of the stuff seems weird. I get maybe having your child on your lap going down a slow country road or safely and slowly turning the searing wheel to learn how to drive while on your lap (and on an obviously slow and unpopulated side street ) but in general all of the above seems bad.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:43

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1, 3, 4 are all child endangerment.

2 arguably is as well, but at least the kid is in a car seat. I hope the passenger air bag has been disabled.

1 and 3 are tied for the worst idea, then 4, then 2.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Alfalfa 07/02/2019 at 14:43

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2 is dangerous and illegal if the seat is rear-facing.  With a forward-facing child seat, it’s still kinda iffy unless you can be absolutely sure that the seat is far enough back to clear the airbag deployment. Best to have an airbag disable switch to remove all doubt, but not a lot of cars have those.

HammerheadFistpunch > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 07/02/2019 at 14:44

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Right?!  Im ashamed to admit that this is a thing my family believes

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:45

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I’d consider anybody letting any child ride somewhere in a car other than in a seatbelted, properly-facing baby seat (of they are an infant), booster seat (if they are the required age), or regular seat of they are old enough is endangerment, period.

That being said, if it’s on your lap up and down your driveway or on very disused dirt road or the like going no more than like...5-10kph, then I’d say you’re OK, but otherwise...

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:51

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This is all child endangerment in my well formed opinion. The only time I would let a child ride in my lap or in the front seat would be if we were on a ranch and driving around at less than 15 mph on private roads. Then I would let them steer and honk the horn.

DipodomysDeserti > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:52

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Vehicles were so much safer back in the ‘80s. We didn’t need helmets or shirts. Hell, we could put an odd number of wheels on motorcycles.

I grew up doing things in the above picture as well as riding around a metro area in the bed of a pickup. No way in hell I’d do any of the things you listed.

However, I couldn’t care less what others do. People probably think I’m shitty for driving my kids around in a roofless Jeep.

Chariotoflove > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:55

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I think the line between serious endangerment and just plain bad parenting, or the one between bad parenting and parental discretion depends on the consequences. As my wife the pediatrician will tell me, there are many studies on child automotive safety and the recommendations put out by the American Academy of Pediatrics, in addition to the regulatory bodies, are based in these. What I think a parent has to do (aside from the issue of obeying the laws) is balance the consequences with the benefits.

Example 1: I f you are on a street where there will be other motorists, and the actions of one of them causes a crash that sets off your airbag, you child is quite possibly dead. Was it worth it to not wait until the child is older and can safely sit up front while making memories that will actually last? Verdict: my wife would kill me, so child AND husband  endangerment.

Example 2: Safer in a car seat, and now older, but what are you gaining by being able to see the kid next to you instead of behind you? Is this worth the risk of airbag or whiplash injury? Bad risk/benefit calculation in my view. Better if you can turn off the airbags. Verdict: not worth it; poor decision making.

Example 3: That’s a law for a reason. Do you really want to risk your kid’s life in a crash just to make a protest? Seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face, as my mom would say. Chances of your 7 year old dying in a crash or at least being severely permanently disabled go way up. I say reevaluate your priorities. Your child relies on your to make good decisions until he gets to the age where he can do so for himself. Verdict: you probably should not be allowed to supervise a child on your own.

Example 4: Boosters aren’t really a PITA at all in my view. They are an easy ad cheap way to prevent injury until the kid is big enough to make the shoulder strap effective. Verdict: huh?

Ash78, voting early and often > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 14:56

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IMHO, only Example 2 (front seat, in carseat) is acceptable for short periods of time because there’s no real harm there, especially with a disabled airbag . Example 4 (no booster) is a distant second, and the other two are verboten.

My parents had me in a car seat in 1980 and all their friends thought they were weirdos. Kids should be allowed to climb all over the place or just sit in a cardboard box in the back. /s

HammerheadFistpunch > Chariotoflove 07/02/2019 at 15:01

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My thoughts exactly. Risk/Reward. It may be a small risk but if there is no reward its still generally not a great idea. in Avalanche safety they call it probability and consequence .

high probability but low consequence - use discretion

Low probability but h igh consequence - where most deaths occur .

Chariotoflove > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 15:05

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I have to say, most of my parents’ rules placed on me were based on their assessment of my ability to make risk/benefit calculations. As I grew older and went out into the world, I was startled at how few adults are familiar with that math.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 15:06

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I let my kids ride on my lap.

...in our neighb orhood.

...at 10 mph.

HammerheadFistpunch > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/02/2019 at 15:11

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I wouldn’t do it in a neighborhood but at least you put some thought into it.

HammerheadFistpunch > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 15:12

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I should amend to say that I’ve had a 3 year old in a front passenger seat in her car seat...

HammerheadFistpunch > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 07/02/2019 at 15:14

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I’ll admit to #2 but she was front facing, it was slow speed off-road and the seat was moved all the way back to the stops.

HammerheadFistpunch > DipodomysDeserti 07/02/2019 at 15:15

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I grew up on a big red where the fork was blown and the handlebar was 20 degrees off-axis.  Would I let my kinds do that?  I don’t know.  I don’t know if I would do it again as an adult.

HammerheadFistpunch > The Ghost of Oppo 07/02/2019 at 15:16

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Theres every possibility that this kick off discussion on the FP was just a troll. Even if it was, the fact that it’s believable is terrible news for people as a whole.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 15:17

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I’d do that too, on public roads even, as long as the front seat moves far enough back.

The Ghost of Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 15:18

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I know you’re trolling, but I also know there are people who think like this. There are also way too many  people who think it is totally fine  to drive with their dog on their lap

HammerheadFistpunch > The Ghost of Oppo 07/02/2019 at 15:20

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Cough *my mom* Cough.

HammerheadFistpunch > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 07/02/2019 at 15:21

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I wouldn’t, only because I would have zero reason to in the cruiser or the GX.  If I can’t fit a kid AND all the stuff those vehicles can fit...I should probably reconsider my trip.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 15:27

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Where we live now, it’d be my little guy driving with me on our own land (slowly) in my truck.

Our old neighborhood was a sleepy one in a suburb and I only did it when there was little to no (slow) traffic.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 15:29

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Example 1 : I let my 1 year old ride in my lap as I’m driving. She thinks its fun and I don’t want her to grow up in a safety bubble.

Child endangerment and idiotic. The closest I’ve been was my 5-month-old riding in the passenger seat for about 30 feet from my driveway to in front of my house one day. He wasn’t heavy enough to enable the airbag.

Example 2 : My 2 year old rides in front with me in his carseat because I can keep a better eye on him.

Child endangerment and ridiculous. Even with the airbag off, it’s dangerous. It might be acceptable in a two-door with no rear seats, but even then I’m not sure it’s worth the risk.

Example 3 : My 7 year old doesn’t wear a seatbelt because I think they are a gross overreach of the government regulation.

Unadulterated stupid. I wish someone took you out of the gene pool before you were allowed to pollute it.

Example 4 : My 5 year old doesn’t use a booster anymore because she’s fine and boosters are a PITA.

General stupid, but I am not as bothered by this for some reason. I grew up riding in cars with just lap belts (or no seatbelts at all!) and wasn’t even in the rudimentary car seats that my parents used by the time I was old enough to sit front-facing in a booster seat. Pretty sure I was out of them by the time I started school and rode in plenty of cars with shoulder belts owned by others without booster seats... Mind you, I was never a passenger in a car that was involved in an accident until I was 33.

Ranking: 1, 2, 3, 4

BigBlock440 > Chariotoflove 07/02/2019 at 15:41

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In example 2, why would there be more of a risk of whiplash injury being in the front seat instead of the back? They’d both be slowing down at the same time, so I’d assume they’d be just as safe if you take the airbag out of the picture.

\When I drove my daughter in my Charger by myself, I just put the car seat in the front since it doesn’t have airbags. My mom yelled at me for it, but couldn’t give a reason other than “that’s where kids are supposed to go”. Though t hat campaign all started because of kids getting killed by airbags and was when they were raising them, so that’s what was beat into their heads. I don’t see any difference front or back with a car built in the early 70's though.

BigBlock440 > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 07/02/2019 at 15:46

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Child endangerment and ridiculo us. Even with the airbag off, it’s dangerous. It might be acceptable in a two-door roadster, but even then I’m not sure it’s worth the risk.

What makes it more dangerous than the back seat, aside from the airbag?

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > BigBlock440 07/02/2019 at 15:54

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Distraction and their argument is invalid.

Although now that I think about it, the order should be: 1, 3, 2, 4

WiscoProud > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 16:02

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All of them are endangerment .

I’ll let my 4yo sit in the front if I know we’ll never get above 10 (pulling into garage, going down in-laws long driveway, etc.) but that’s it. If i had a two door car, i would obviously have her in the front with me, but if the back is an option, that’s where she’s going.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 16:02

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I think a lot of this hinges on location as well.

Example 1A : Driving on normal roads, terrible idea, endangering your child.

Example 1B: Driving on deserted back roads, field roads, etc, not hurting a damn thing.

Example 2A: Driving a vehicle with a back seat/airbags, terrible idea, putting your child in danger if a crash happens.

Example 2B: Driving a vehicle without airbags/back seat, where the hell else are they supposed to go?

Example 3: Don’t be a dumbass, your kid needs a seatbelt on the road.

Example 4: Boosters depend on weight/height/seat belt fitment more than age. My oldest was about 5 when we pulled her booster, she was above height, at weight, and the seat belt sa t perfectly without it, at that point I feel she was in more danger staying in it with an improper seat belt placement than she was with it.

Another consideration is How  far do we let them reach into this? I mean riding kids around in an old vehicle is unsafe, but who is going to fund people getting new cars?

Jay, the practical enthusiast > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 16:04

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I was planning on writing an article on how both my 9 year old and my 5 year old drove for the first time last month. We were in Mongolia (the least densely populated country in the world) miles from the nearest city, people, cars, trees, or even animals. I worked the pedals (top speed of maybe 15 mph) and they took turns steering. They loved it.

HammerheadFistpunch > Jay, the practical enthusiast 07/02/2019 at 16:08

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There are certainly ways to do this safe and smart. I mean, you can legally solo gliders at 14 and find me a single western states farm boy that wasn’t driving trucks at that age... Then there are people that justify it on public streets where laws exists specifically prohibiting it.

RallyWrench > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 16:26

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Example 1 : I let my 1 year old ride in my lap as I’m driving. She thinks its fun and I don’t want her to grow up in a safety bubble. ( This it unbelievably stupid, t otally unsafe and unacceptable endangerment, especially in an airbag car.)

Example 2 : My 2 year old rides in front with me in his carseat because I can keep a better eye on him. ( with airbag switched off or not so equipped, this isn’t the end of the world. In a vehicle equipped with accessible rear seats this is irresponsible, but modern car seats don’t fit in extended cab pickups or most 2-door car back seats at all, for example, and in 2-door, 2-seat cars it’s often the only option )

Example 3 : My 7 year old doesn’t wear a seatbelt because I think they are a gross overreach of the government regulation. ( This is monumental stupidity and endangerment)

Example 4 : My 5 year old doesn’t use a booster anymore because she’s fine and boosters are a PITA. (On the fence here. Boosters are not a pain the ass, at all. My almost 7 year old is very tall for her age, easily looks a year or more older by height, and her booster is very easy to swap out if need be so she’s still in it. But if for some reason she rode without a booster on a short trip in a pinch I wouldn’t be too concerned, and she has, as her friends have done the same with us. )

All that said, I let our oldest sit in my lap and steer the Sienna around deserted parking lots, just to feel what it’s like. I’m on the pedals, it’s no faster than idle in Drive, and it’s a memorable and enthusiastic experience for her, as it was for me as a kid. And both of the kids have ridden in the front of the 911 and my singlecab Nissan (in their proper seats), because it’s the only way. The booster seat thing deserves a little flexibility, not out of ignorance or laziness, but for fluid situations. Like if my daughter and her friend want to play after soccer and we walked there but her friends’ Odyssey doesn’t have a 3rd booster handy, it’s ok to go across town to their house, and their daughter has done the same with us. Or if you’re picking up a friend’s kid from school on short notice because they got stuck at work or something. But none of our kids are riding up to Big Sur cocooned in the back of dad’s pickup like we did, or laying down for a nap across the back seats on trips, or any number of things that we did.

Chariotoflove > BigBlock440 07/02/2019 at 16:37

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The whiplash injury in the front of the car comes from being in a forward facing seat when the child is younger than 4 years, or in a rear facing seat because of the impact of the airbag on the back of his seat. If the child is forward facing and there is an airbag, there is also  the risk of injury from the bag impacting the child’s head directly.

To answer your question, if you turn off the airbag in the front, or don’t have one, then the risk of neck injury with a rear facing seat isn’t greater in the front vs. back seat of the car, as far as I know. It is still better to put the child in the rear, preferably in the center if possible, because that is statistically the safest place in the car, being that most car crashes are impacts in the front.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > BigBlock440 07/02/2019 at 16:43

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On older cars, the front would typically expletive some form of compaction in a head on crash. With the airbag disabled   I suspect because you would be relying on the straps and not the metal loops that latch in place. Whiplash is called that not for the first motion but the change in direction of the forces. 

nermal > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 16:44

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It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye.... er.... kid.

Safety equipment exists for a reason. The most outspoken people about letting their children bounce around the car unsecured will quickly change their mind if one of them gets flung out the window and squashed by a truck. 

smobgirl > Jay, the practical enthusiast 07/02/2019 at 17:05

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I mean that looks like a much better place for most 16-18 year olds to learn to drive too. I think it sounds like you gave them an unforgettable experience.

smobgirl > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/02/2019 at 17:09

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I’d say it’s a flat no in my neighborhood, but then my neighbor lets her 3 and  4 year olds scooter in the road unsupervised without helmets so the odds of an impact are higher than you might expect. Also some people shouldn’t have children.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > smobgirl 07/02/2019 at 17:15

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Yeah, definitely no scooters in the street for my kids. 

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > DipodomysDeserti 07/02/2019 at 19:21

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I just hope this way of thinking never permeates American culture. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 19:41

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I would go with child endagerment.

when i grew up we would go offraoding, my dad or sometime mom would work the pe da l s and we would drive on the beach on their lap . (15mph max). at 15 with the ok of the park ranger i would drive and use the turn off to practice blinker use. and when we had lots of people would occasionally ride in the back of the truck. but even 15 years ago, with the traffic increasing, that was stropped,. just take 2 or 3 cars and shuttle folk from the parking lot.

Also we would go for cruises in my dads model A and that is just a deathtrap, (though I want to restore it)

stuff i did was dumb, struff my parents did was really stupid and stuff my grandparents did was “ OMG how are you aliv e?!?!?” I mean hell, when a large percent don’t live to age 5 due to health problems, and going off to war at 19 with a significant percentage not returning was the norm, your norm is very different.

DipodomysDeserti > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 07/02/2019 at 19:46

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Yeah, it’ll be a sad day when pickups, Jeeps and motorcycles permeate American culture...

Almost a whole week, huh? Must be slow. 

AMC/Renauledge > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 19:46

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Example 1: Everyone- in- the- car- endangerment. Holy distracted driving, Batman!

Example 2: Modern cars have front seat sensors that deactivate the passenger airbag when a child seat is detected. Or they offer an airbag deactivation switch, like I’ve seen on regular-cab and extended-cab pickups and 2-seat sports cars. Particularly if the kiddo is safely strapped in a car seat, this shouldn’t be terribly dangerous. You might get judged, but other than that...I’m not sure there’s an issue here.

Example 3: Everyone-in-the-car-endangerment. Unbelted occupants become projectiles in accidents. And 60lbs worth of kiddo bouncing around doing fuck all in the car is a serious distraction and can make vehicle control for low-skilled drivers a little less confident in certain circumstances.

Example 4: If the 5 year-old is big enough to not need a booster, then fine. If they aren’t, I’d call it a seriously stupid idea.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 19:52

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I ’ll be citing this from time to time https://www.cdc.gov/features/passengersafety/index.html

This also assumes the parent is not actively trying to put their child in danger. I will also take the position that it’s my child. Forcing other people to do the right thing is a long legal uphill sociopolitical battle without a huge public scandal or PR snafu so whether or not it SHOULD be done is a separate convo, IMO.

Example 1 : I let my 1 year old ride in my lap as I’m driving. She thinks its fun and I don’t want her to grow up in a safety bubble.

At 1, the kid isn’t old enough to pick up on anything that’s done over time, although the time spend itself can be of mutual benefit to your kids regardless of activity. I’m no lawyer, but I’m certain you could drum up a number of less risky activities that your 1 year old would also find fun.

However, I fail to see the risk if this is being some in some isolated area with no hazards at slow speeds. The airbag as unlikely as it is at slow speeds , if it went off, would blow the child apart and possibly parts of the adult as well.

In regular traffic driving this is a needless risk with little to no practical reward.

Conclusion : need more info, leaning towards “but why do it?”

Example 2 : My 2 year old rides in front with me in his carseat because I can keep a better eye on him.

I have questions. Is the car seat facing backwards? Is it in a seat where there is a passenger air bag disable feature ? What’s the statistical failure rate of the passenger air bag weight sensor in light of an accident? Does the car have a really good safety rating that retains the cabin structure in light of a crash? I’m assuming this is done consistently day-to-day.

If it’s a rather old, risky, squishy car, I’d probably not be happy with this. I’d put my kid in the rear as best I can, since accidents are unpredictable.

If it’s a modern, super safe, well equipped modern car, and you drive around in an area that is of relatively low accident risk, I think if you chose to do everything else right it wouldn’t be a big deal.

Anything in between would need more details.

Conclusion : “If you do everything else correctly, it’s of relatively lower risk enough not to raise a huge stink.”

Example 3 : My 7 year old doesn’t wear a seatbelt because I think they are a gross overreach of the government regulation.

With EXTREMELY few exceptions, c hildren never sit still when given reach to roam.

Conclusion: See video(s) . Sorry, no can do. I’m buckling mine in and not moving until I do - nobody’s perfect or drives in perfect traffic.

Example 4 : My 5 year old doesn’t use a booster anymore because she’s fine and boosters are a PITA.

I’ve known some pretty huge 5 year olds and they don’t fit in boosters. Massively overgrown 5 year olds are probably a separate independent issue, but they exist and if it applies here, a belt should be ok.

Assuming we’re NOT talking about children who have abnormal pituitary gland issues, if for some reason the seat belt still fits, okay, whatever.

Assuming the seat belt doesn’t fit and my child is not Andre the Giant, boosters in fact are still completely a PITA. On that this person and I agree, but I do not find the risk of a belt that will be ineff ective in a crash to be acceptable. Kids are soft and heal effectively, but that THAT effectively to think that a missing shoulder belt will make the maths better . Look at Dwight up there at point 3. Imagine if the kid’s glasses went in his eye. 

I didn’t pull out, the woman carried to term, we bottle/breastfeed a kid for years, then years of cleaning up shit and diapers and messy tables and having walls and devices and clothes and personal effects ruined by curiosity and growing, and you spend years dealing with a child seat and then you’re going to draw the line at booster seats?

And if you didn’t do all of the above, exactly how do you expect to have your kids interests in mind, and not yours?

Conclusion: If you’ve already been doing everything else right you wouldn’t object to booster seats either.

At the end of the day, I’d want to minimize the risk of injuries you can’t learn/heal from while maximizing the options of choice otherwise. A lot of things that cars do that can fail that don’t have takebacks.

We’ve perpetually discussed how everyone should be more mindful of the fact that many of us carry a huge amount of momentum and kinetic energy when operating a 1-2 ton steel cage with wheels, trusting our friction surface to 4 relatively small contact patches of rubber on asphalt.

I’m not a betting man, but I’d be willing to bet the people who make points 1 to 4 haven’t done that maths either.

We could discuss about how kid- safe playgrounds should be, though.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > DipodomysDeserti 07/02/2019 at 19:55

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Oy vey.

You’ll have to find someone else to argue with on the internet today. I don’t have it in me.

DipodomysDeserti > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 07/02/2019 at 20:01

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Same. D og and motorcycle died last week, sister had a baby yesterday, America Day is in two days. It is not a time for arguing. It’s a time for drinking (and blowing shit up).

(and fixing motorcycles)

(and  maybe shooting guns)

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > DipodomysDeserti 07/02/2019 at 20:07

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Alright, I’ll level with ya. This is me literally trying to offer an olive branch, alright? I was just fantastically curious to see how you’d respond. I don’t think I’m natively a bad tempered person, just a massive cynic especially when it comes to people.

You sound perfectly capable of both reading comprehension and being civil.   I don’t mind that you disagree with something I’ve said, but how you responded last week did confuse the living shit out of me. As a fellow Oppo AND AZ person I had hoped that we could at least get along, but I get the vibe you don’t care much for me or my comments based on a quick review of past responses.

Which is fine, I guess, but I don’t get where hostility directed at me comes from. I didn’t do anything to you. I was just looking to see where you were coming from.

I think babies and dogs and drinking and motorcyc les and guns are fantastic in the right contexts and I wish you well in those regards.

Sorry to hear about your dog and bike . I didn’t know.

wkiernan > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 20:50

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I wouldn’t do 1. except in a place where I know there is absolutely no traffic. My Mom ‘n’ Dad used to do 1. but that was then and this is now.

There’s a switch to turn of the passenger-side airbag in my car, so I’d do 2.

I’ve been in six car wrecks in my life. The first two I had no seatbelt and I spent days in the hospital. The last four I was belted in, and despite a couple of the wrecks being pretty energetic I got out without a scratch. That’s not a big sample but I’m convinced; ride in my car and you will wear a seat belt, period. I’d never never never do 3.

I think a five-year-old is big enough that he or she doesn’t need a booster seat so I’d do 4.

TheRealBicycleBuck > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 21:14

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Example 1 : I let my 1 year old ride in my lap as I’m driving. She thinks its fun and I don’t want her to grow up in a safety bubble.

A: When I was in high school, somebody (a safety organization or maybe the state police ) brought “T he C onvincer” to our sc hool.

After a few kids made the trip down the slide, the presenter asked for the biggest, baddest football player to come up. After strapping him in, the presenter handed him a baby doll. The doll hit the front of the cart despite the football player’s best efforts to hold onto it.

Even worse, it doesn’t take much to cause the airbag to go off. That can kill a kid.

Example 2 : My 2 year old rides in front with me in his carseat because I can keep a better eye on him.

A: As long as the airbag is disabled, I don’t have a problem with this. It’s not the safest place in the car, but I think it’s safer than the driver reaching into the back seat to deal with a grumpy kid. Sometimes, like in my truck, it’s the only option.

Example 3 : My 7 year old doesn’t wear a seatbelt because I think they are a gross overreach of the government regulation.

A: This is an asinine choice. Unrestrained kids become miniature organic missiles in a crash. This is dangerous for everyone in the car, including the child.

Example 4 : My 5 year old doesn’t use a booster anymore because she’s fine and boosters are a PITA.

A: The booster makes sure the seatbelt is in the right place. If you want your child to suffer through abdominal injuries in even a minor crash , I suppose it’s your right.

wafflesnfalafel > HammerheadFistpunch 07/02/2019 at 22:53

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my take - don’t do something you can’t live with  if sh!t happens, but everything else is suggested. . Bubble wrapping and locking your child in a safe room is not the answer.

DipodomysDeserti > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 07/03/2019 at 10:42

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Olive branch accepted. I don’t have any qualms with you, I’m just a smartass in my responses sometimes.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > DipodomysDeserti 07/03/2019 at 13:21

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Cheers have a good 4th. 

DipodomysDeserti > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 07/03/2019 at 13:26

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You as well.